http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/tscmd/tc/60712 en-us This work is licensed under a Creative Commons License - Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike - http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/ Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org - Bible scholar Robert M. Price answers questions submitted to him on TheBibleGeek.org This Podcast was created using www.talkshoe.com 720 http://www.talkshoe.com/custom/images/icons/TC-60712-MainIcon.jpg http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/tscmd/tc/60712 100 100 TheBibleGeek.org TheBibleGeek.org TheBibleGeek.org - Bible scholar Robert M. Price answers questions submitted to him on TheBibleGeek.org This Podcast was created using www.talkshoe.com TheBibleGeek.org info@talkshoe.com clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-152474.mp3 Wed, 01 Oct 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-152474.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-152474.mp3 Each week Dr. Robert M. Price answers questions posed to him on TheBibleGeek.org Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org 10/1/08 Bible Geek opening monlogue Each week Dr. Robert M. Price answers questions posed to him on TheBibleGeek.org 08:40 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-152473.mp3 Wed, 01 Oct 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-152473.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-152473.mp3 Dear Dr. Price, While researching the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and the various Abrahamic perspectives on it, I was surprised to discover that Jews, Christians, and Muslims interpret the story differently in terms of the degree to which each reads the story as a castigation of homosexuality. While the three versions of the story (i.e., the Talmudic, Biblical, and Qurâ??anic) vary to some degree in the details, the story goes something like this: God, upset by the sinfulness of the people of the Five Cities of the Plain (i.e., Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboim, and Zoar), tells Abraham that he plans to destroy the cities and everyone in them. Abraham, whose nephew Lot resides in Sodom with his wife and two daughters, pleads with God to spare the cities. God agrees to fulfill Abrahamâ??s request if two of his angels can find within Sodom 50 righteous men whose mere existence may redeem and save the cities from destruction. When the angels inform God that they could only locate one righteous man -- Lot -- God decides to continue with his original plan of destroying all five cities. The two angels, however, go to Sodom to warn Lot that he should flee from the city before Godâ??s wrath is exacted. While the two angles are visiting with Lot in a house, a mob of male Sodomites gathers at the door of the house and demands that Lot give up the two â??menâ?? (i.e., the angels) so that they, the mob, may do certain things to them. (It is unclear if the mob knows that the â??menâ?? are angels.) Lot refuses, but offers his daughters to the mob instead, which they angrily refuse. The angels then strike the mob with blindness so that Lot may escape with his family to the city of Zoar, which God has agreed to spare in return for it offering safe haven to the fleeing family (minus Lotâ??s wife, of course). The controversy, should we call it that, stems from just exactly what it was that the mob was intending to do with, or to, the angels (Genesis 19:5). The Tanach version of this specific incident seems to be fairly unambiguous about the mobâ??s intentions: "And they called to Lot and said to him, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, and let us have relations with them.'" The King James Bible version, however, is somewhat ambiguous: "And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, 'Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? Bring them out unto us, that we may know them.'" Particularly interesting is the New International Version Bibleâ??s take on the incident, which is rather comical in its unambiguity: "They called to Lot, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.'" The Yusuf Ali translation of the Qurâ??an tells it this way: "And his [Lutâ??s] people came rushing towards him, and they had been long in the habit of practicing abominations. He said: 'O my people! Here are my daughters: they are purer for you (if ye marry)! Now fear Allah, and cover me not with shame about my guests! Is there not among you a single right-minded man?' They said: â??Well dost thou know we have no need of thy daughters: indeed thou knowest quite well what we want!'" My question is this: To what degree can we be certain that the original intent of the story was to represent the Sodomite mob as wanting to have forceful sexual relations with the two angels? And furthermore, if this was indeed their intention, have theologians traditionally equated male-on-male (or in this case, male-on-angel) gang rape with homosexuality, or is homosexuality instead inferred from the general sinfulness of the Five Cities of the Plain? Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Sodom, Gomorrah, and Homosexuality Dear Dr. Price, While researching the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and the various Abrahamic perspectives on it, I was surprised to discover that Jews, Christians, and Muslims interpret the story differently in terms of the degree to which each reads the story as a castigation of homosexuality. While the three versions of the story (i.e., the Talmudic, Biblical, and Qurâ??anic) vary to some degree in the details, the story goes something like this: God, upset by the sinfulness of the people of the Five Cities of the Plain (i.e., Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboim, and Zoar), tells Abraham that he plans to destroy the cities and everyone in them. Abraham, whose nephew Lot resides in Sodom with his wife and two daughters, pleads with God to spare the cities. God agrees to fulfill Abrahamâ??s request if two of his angels can find within Sodom 50 righteous men whose mere existence may redeem and save the cities from destruction. When the angels inform God that they could only locate one righteous man -- Lot -- God decides to continue with his original plan of destroying all five cities. The two angels, however, go to Sodom to warn Lot that he should flee from the city before Godâ??s wrath is exacted. While the two angles are visiting with Lot in a house, a mob of male Sodomites gathers at the door of the house and demands that Lot give up the two â??menâ?? (i.e., the angels) so that they, the mob, may do certain things to them. (It is unclear if the mob knows that the â??menâ?? are angels.) Lot refuses, but offers his daughters to the mob instead, which they angrily refuse. The angels then strike the mob with blindness so that Lot may escape with his family to the city of Zoar, which God has agreed to spare in return for it offering safe haven to the fleeing family (minus Lotâ??s wife, of course). The controversy, should we call it that, stems from just exactly what it was that the mob was intending to do with, or to, the angels (Genesis 19:5). The Tanach version of this specific incident seems to be fairly unambiguous about the mobâ??s intentions: "And they called to Lot and said to him, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, and let us have relations with them.'" The King James Bible version, however, is somewhat ambiguous: "And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, 'Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? Bring them out unto us, that we may know them.'" Particularly interesting is the New International Version Bibleâ??s take on the incident, which is rather comical in its unambiguity: "They called to Lot, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.'" The Yusuf Ali translation of the Qurâ??an tells it this way: "And his [Lutâ??s] people came rushing towards him, and they had been long in the habit of practicing abominations. He said: 'O my people! Here are my daughters: they are purer for you (if ye marry)! Now fear Allah, and cover me not with shame about my guests! Is there not among you a single right-minded man?' They said: â??Well dost thou know we have no need of thy daughters: indeed thou knowest quite well what we want!'" My question is this: To what degree can we be certain that the original intent of the story was to represent the Sodomite mob as wanting to have forceful sexual relations with the two angels? And furthermore, if this was indeed their intention, have theologians traditionally equated male-on-male (or in this case, male-on-angel) gang rape with homosexuality, or is homosexuality instead inferred from the general sinfulness of the Five Cities of the Plain? 18:26 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-152470.mp3 Wed, 01 Oct 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-152470.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-152470.mp3 Bob, you have mentioned the role that Ancient novels, Classic Tragedy and the Old Testament played in the formation of the New Testament narratives do you think there is any role for horror stories especially in the formation of some of the Apocalypses. I know of at least one person, Deborah Felton, who is doing research into Horror stories of the Classic world. As I read over some of the source material she is working from I was struck by the realization that the Biblical narritive would have be read aloud to an audience, which raises the question how much of the demonic stories, ghost, the desent into Hades, etc. were meant to frieghten the listener? Or put another way, how many of these stories served the same function modern horror stories do? Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Here is a question right up your alley Bob, you have mentioned the role that Ancient novels, Classic Tragedy and the Old Testament played in the formation of the New Testament narratives do you think there is any role for horror stories especially in the formation of some of the Apocalypses. I know of at least one person, Deborah Felton, who is doing research into Horror stories of the Classic world. As I read over some of the source material she is working from I was struck by the realization that the Biblical narritive would have be read aloud to an audience, which raises the question how much of the demonic stories, ghost, the desent into Hades, etc. were meant to frieghten the listener? Or put another way, how many of these stories served the same function modern horror stories do? 10:37 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-152469.mp3 Wed, 01 Oct 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-152469.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-152469.mp3 Please comment on Richard Burridge, 2004 What are the gospels? A comparison with Greco-Roman biography, 2nd edition, Eerdmans. Any example of biography of mythical or non-historical person? Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Gospels = biographies? Please comment on Richard Burridge, 2004 What are the gospels? A comparison with Greco-Roman biography, 2nd edition, Eerdmans. Any example of biography of mythical or non-historical person? 06:02 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-152468.mp3 Wed, 01 Oct 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-152468.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-152468.mp3 Your geekiness, What is the relationship between islam and moon worship? As an increasing number of muslims live in my area and are currently fasting during the day, it occurred to me that ramadan is a type of moon cult fest, since you starve during the day and feast once the sun sets and the moon is shining. There seem to be many other elements of moon worship -- ramadan begins with the full moon, their symbol is the crescent moon, they follow the lunar calendar, etc. I've heard that Allah was a moon god, and has some relationship with Abraham (another moon god?), and had moon/star daughters. It occurred to me as well that the meteorite that muslims worship may have been thought of as a piece of the moon by the ancients. Your thoughts? Is islam a fusion of pagan moon worship with judeo-christian types of ideas? Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org islam moon worship Your geekiness, What is the relationship between islam and moon worship? As an increasing number of muslims live in my area and are currently fasting during the day, it occurred to me that ramadan is a type of moon cult fest, since you starve during the day and feast once the sun sets and the moon is shining. There seem to be many other elements of moon worship -- ramadan begins with the full moon, their symbol is the crescent moon, they follow the lunar calendar, etc. I've heard that Allah was a moon god, and has some relationship with Abraham (another moon god?), and had moon/star daughters. It occurred to me as well that the meteorite that muslims worship may have been thought of as a piece of the moon by the ancients. Your thoughts? Is islam a fusion of pagan moon worship with judeo-christian types of ideas? 08:02 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-150272.mp3 Wed, 24 Sep 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-150272.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-150272.mp3 Bob's opening monologue for the 9/24/08 Ask The Bible Geek show, where Dr. Robert M. Price answers questions posed on TheBibleGeek.org site. Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org 9/24/08 Opening Monologue Bob's opening monologue for the 9/24/08 Ask The Bible Geek show, where Dr. Robert M. Price answers questions posed on TheBibleGeek.org site. 05:27 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-150270.mp3 Wed, 24 Sep 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-150270.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-150270.mp3 I read that the name Jesus is just the Greek version of Joshua - which means Yahweh Saves, or Saviour. Are there any theories out there (crazy or not so crazy!) that link Jesus Christ with Joshua Son of Nun? Do people see any connection between them? Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Joshua/Jesus I read that the name Jesus is just the Greek version of Joshua - which means Yahweh Saves, or Saviour. Are there any theories out there (crazy or not so crazy!) that link Jesus Christ with Joshua Son of Nun? Do people see any connection between them? 12:43 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-150268.mp3 Wed, 24 Sep 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-150268.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-150268.mp3 Greetings Oh Great and Knowledgeable Bible Geek Marcion's version of Galatians lacked 1:18-24 and the word "again" (greek: palin) in 2:1. Tertullian, Irenaeus and others claimed Marcion striped out what he did not like. Can it be that Marcion had the original and the early Catholics doctored the text to suite their dogmatic agenda? Is there a way to make a case for Marcion priority in the text of Galatians? Thanks and All the Best Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Can a sound case for interpolation of Gal 1:18-2:1 be made? Greetings Oh Great and Knowledgeable Bible Geek Marcion's version of Galatians lacked 1:18-24 and the word "again" (greek: palin) in 2:1. Tertullian, Irenaeus and others claimed Marcion striped out what he did not like. Can it be that Marcion had the original and the early Catholics doctored the text to suite their dogmatic agenda? Is there a way to make a case for Marcion priority in the text of Galatians? Thanks and All the Best 11:05 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-150267.mp3 Wed, 24 Sep 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-150267.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-150267.mp3 From what I understand Marcion's gospel was a form of Luke - and Luke was based on Mark. However it seems that Mark and Marcion are very different - Mark is very Jewish, or at least very scriptural in that almost all of the elements within it can be traced to old testament passages. Why would Marcion use a gospel based on the Torah to develop his own? Was Marcion as anti-jewish as I imagine? Or did Marcion not realise that Mark was interpreted scripture? Or was there an intermediate stage that I'm missing? Any help in sorting out my confusion would be appreciated! Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Did Marcion use Mark? From what I understand Marcion's gospel was a form of Luke - and Luke was based on Mark. However it seems that Mark and Marcion are very different - Mark is very Jewish, or at least very scriptural in that almost all of the elements within it can be traced to old testament passages. Why would Marcion use a gospel based on the Torah to develop his own? Was Marcion as anti-jewish as I imagine? Or did Marcion not realise that Mark was interpreted scripture? Or was there an intermediate stage that I'm missing? Any help in sorting out my confusion would be appreciated! 11:05 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-150265.mp3 Wed, 24 Sep 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-150265.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-150265.mp3 I was reading a post else where and someone was asking if others had more information on the Cathar. This is a new early Christian group to me. I've heard of other groups, like the Gnostic, Essenes, Nazarenes, Docetists, and alike, but I have no information except what Webster's dictionary states, which is (in the singular) "a member of one of various ascetic and dualistic Christian sects esp. of the later Middle Ages teaching that matter is evil and professing faith in an angelic Christ who did not really undergo human birth or death". This sounds almost Gnostic, with slight differences. Next in line after that definition is the word "catharsis" and Webster speaks of "purgation", "purification or purgation of the emotions (as pity and fear)", "a purification or purgation that brings about spiritual renewal or release from tension". I'm assuming there is a relationship, not just in origin of the word "catharsis", but also cathartic rituals. Can you please enlighten us on the Cathars and their rituals (probably cathartic ones given the word relationship), as well as other things about them and other sources to read about them? Thanks. Mriana Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Who are the Cathars? I was reading a post else where and someone was asking if others had more information on the Cathar. This is a new early Christian group to me. I've heard of other groups, like the Gnostic, Essenes, Nazarenes, Docetists, and alike, but I have no information except what Webster's dictionary states, which is (in the singular) "a member of one of various ascetic and dualistic Christian sects esp. of the later Middle Ages teaching that matter is evil and professing faith in an angelic Christ who did not really undergo human birth or death". This sounds almost Gnostic, with slight differences. Next in line after that definition is the word "catharsis" and Webster speaks of "purgation", "purification or purgation of the emotions (as pity and fear)", "a purification or purgation that brings about spiritual renewal or release from tension". I'm assuming there is a relationship, not just in origin of the word "catharsis", but also cathartic rituals. Can you please enlighten us on the Cathars and their rituals (probably cathartic ones given the word relationship), as well as other things about them and other sources to read about them? Thanks. Mriana 07:52 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-150264.mp3 Wed, 24 Sep 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-150264.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-150264.mp3 Dr. Price, I was hoping to get your interpretation of Mark 14:51-52, the famous scene of the young man and the linen cloth. I know that several scholars, including your colleague John Dominic Crossan, have paired this section with the â??Secret Gospel of Mark.â?? In your article, â??Second Thoughts on the Secret Gospelâ?? you make the case that the â??Secret Gospelâ?? was Morton Smith's forgery. If this is the case, what sense do you make of Mark 14:51? By the way, I stumbled across the book â??Mystic Rhythmsâ?? on Amazon, the one that you and Carol did about Rush. Is this where you advance your Geddy Lee Myth hypothesis? Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Question about the young nudist Dr. Price, I was hoping to get your interpretation of Mark 14:51-52, the famous scene of the young man and the linen cloth. I know that several scholars, including your colleague John Dominic Crossan, have paired this section with the â??Secret Gospel of Mark.â?? In your article, â??Second Thoughts on the Secret Gospelâ?? you make the case that the â??Secret Gospelâ?? was Morton Smith's forgery. If this is the case, what sense do you make of Mark 14:51? By the way, I stumbled across the book â??Mystic Rhythmsâ?? on Amazon, the one that you and Carol did about Rush. Is this where you advance your Geddy Lee Myth hypothesis? 07:26 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-148221.mp3 Wed, 17 Sep 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-148221.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-148221.mp3 Dr. Robert M. Price answers questions from visitors to TheBibleGeek.org Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org 9/17 Bible Geek show monologue Dr. Robert M. Price answers questions from visitors to TheBibleGeek.org 05:31 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-148220.mp3 Wed, 17 Sep 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-148220.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-148220.mp3 Hi everybody, I'm interested in the bible as a layman / hobbyist, so forgive any of my noob questions in advance : ) My question for today is, How did the Isreali's end up as Egyptian slaves in the first place? It just seems that Moses was called to lead them out, but I'm curious as to how / why they ended up there at all and any type of references where I can read more about that. thanks! Dennis Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; Pre-Exodus Israel Hi everybody, I'm interested in the bible as a layman / hobbyist, so forgive any of my noob questions in advance : ) My question for today is, How did the Isreali's end up as Egyptian slaves in the first place? It just seems that Moses was called to lead them out, but I'm curious as to how / why they ended up there at all and any type of references where I can read more about that. thanks! Dennis 06:01 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-148217.mp3 Wed, 17 Sep 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-148217.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-148217.mp3 Your Geekiness, In a lecture you gave for FreeThought Fort Wayne concerning your book "Top Secret: The Truth Behind Today's Pop Mysticisms", you gave some of your thoughts on some of the New Atheist writers, like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens. Do you have any intention of writing any articles, or perhaps even a book concerning the New Atheists, what they say that you take issue with, and what they say that you agree with. Your take on Pop Mysticism was uncompromisingly fair in it's assessment, as you take the time to appreciate as well as criticize the claims that are made. I think it would be useful for freethinkers to have such a book on the New Atheists as well, especially if it is written by one who wields the sword of discernment as skillfully and gracefully as you do. thebluediamond Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; The New Atheists Your Geekiness, In a lecture you gave for FreeThought Fort Wayne concerning your book "Top Secret: The Truth Behind Today's Pop Mysticisms", you gave some of your thoughts on some of the New Atheist writers, like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens. Do you have any intention of writing any articles, or perhaps even a book concerning the New Atheists, what they say that you take issue with, and what they say that you agree with. Your take on Pop Mysticism was uncompromisingly fair in it's assessment, as you take the time to appreciate as well as criticize the claims that are made. I think it would be useful for freethinkers to have such a book on the New Atheists as well, especially if it is written by one who wields the sword of discernment as skillfully and gracefully as you do. thebluediamond 04:47 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-148215.mp3 Wed, 17 Sep 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-148215.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-148215.mp3 Dr. Price, I've been listening through old Bible Geek episodes (in reverse order--your books are being progressively unwritten!), and on many occasions you talk about how Jesus' promise to return gets progressively "hedged" as the original followers of Jesus died off, and this explains variations in the text. I'm not clear how this makes sense given the Christ-myth theory, however. If there was no Jesus, there were no original witnesses to the prophecy who would be dying off over time. So why would the prophecy be revised and extra explanations added (you mention that the transfiguration was taken to be the coming of the kingdom of God, for example) if there wasn't really anyone who thought Christ's return was imminent? For that matter, how does it make sense for there to be a belief in the "return" of Christ at all if he was mythology later transformed into history? Finally, it still just doesn't seem plausible to me that early Christians in the mythic scenario would be able to get away with just wholesale inventing the historical Jesus. Wouldn't someone have called them on it since it would be less than 100 years or so after the claimed events occurred? Are there any examples of early Jewish critics of Christianity pointing out that the NT is just midrash on the OT or that the stories are otherwise implausible? -Zac Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; Some here today will not taste death Dr. Price, I've been listening through old Bible Geek episodes (in reverse order--your books are being progressively unwritten!), and on many occasions you talk about how Jesus' promise to return gets progressively "hedged" as the original followers of Jesus died off, and this explains variations in the text. I'm not clear how this makes sense given the Christ-myth theory, however. If there was no Jesus, there were no original witnesses to the prophecy who would be dying off over time. So why would the prophecy be revised and extra explanations added (you mention that the transfiguration was taken to be the coming of the kingdom of God, for example) if there wasn't really anyone who thought Christ's return was imminent? For that matter, how does it make sense for there to be a belief in the "return" of Christ at all if he was mythology later transformed into history? Finally, it still just doesn't seem plausible to me that early Christians in the mythic scenario would be able to get away with just wholesale inventing the historical Jesus. Wouldn't someone have called them on it since it would be less than 100 years or so after the claimed events occurred? Are there any examples of early Jewish critics of Christianity pointing out that the NT is just midrash on the OT or that the stories are otherwise implausible? -Zac 14:35 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-148214.mp3 Wed, 17 Sep 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-148214.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-148214.mp3 For God so loved the world that he gave his only son. I'm afraid I don't know the proper reference. But I'm confused. Since right after his death, Jesus went back to his fathers side, or was his father, what exactly was given? I don't see what the sacrifice was. I'm enjoying catching up with the past episodes. Funny way for an athiest to spend his time, but I love history. Michael Duchek San Diego, California Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; For God so loved the world For God so loved the world that he gave his only son. I'm afraid I don't know the proper reference. But I'm confused. Since right after his death, Jesus went back to his fathers side, or was his father, what exactly was given? I don't see what the sacrifice was. I'm enjoying catching up with the past episodes. Funny way for an athiest to spend his time, but I love history. Michael Duchek San Diego, California 18:58 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-148213.mp3 Wed, 17 Sep 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-148213.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-148213.mp3 This is a preemptize question I am asking with the hope that it will be answered about the time you are covering Islam in you world religion lectures. What is your take on Karl-Heinz Ohlig arguement that Muhummad was a Christological title and not the name of a historical person? thanks as always, Steven M Stiles Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; Preemptize question This is a preemptize question I am asking with the hope that it will be answered about the time you are covering Islam in you world religion lectures. What is your take on Karl-Heinz Ohlig arguement that Muhummad was a Christological title and not the name of a historical person? thanks as always, Steven M Stiles 09:57 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146387.mp3 Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146387.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146387.mp3 Bob's intro for the 9/10 Ask The Bible Geek show, where he answers questions posted on http://TheBibleGeek.org forum Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org 9/10 Ask The Bible Geek monologue Bob's intro for the 9/10 Ask The Bible Geek show, where he answers questions posted on http://TheBibleGeek.org forum 09:02 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146386.mp3 Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146386.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146386.mp3 Is it true that there is a consensus amongst historians that there was a historical Jesus? Secondly Michael Grant has said that the Jesus Myth position has been refuted again and again by scholars. Do you know of any materials that present these refutations? Thank you. Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; Historical Jesus Is it true that there is a consensus amongst historians that there was a historical Jesus? Secondly Michael Grant has said that the Jesus Myth position has been refuted again and again by scholars. Do you know of any materials that present these refutations? Thank you. 12:11 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146385.mp3 Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146385.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146385.mp3 Dear Dr. Price: One topic that I never saw well-addressed in any harmonization acount of the Gospels was the varying reports provided by Mary Magdalene, in Luke and John. To wit (NASB): Luke 21 : 4 While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men suddenly stood near them in dazzling clothing; 5 and as the women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, â??Why do you seek the living One among the dead? 6 â??He is not here, but He has risen. Remember how He spoke to you while He was still in Galilee, 7 saying that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.â?? 8 And they remembered His words, 9 and returned from the tomb and reported all these things to the eleven and to all the rest. 10 Now they were Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James; also the other women with them were telling these things to the apostles. 11 But these words appeared to them as nonsense, and they would not believe them. 12 But Peter got up and ran to the tomb .. But in John 20: 1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark, and saw the stone already taken away from the tomb. 2 So she ran and came to Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and said to them, â??They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.â?? 3 So Peter and the other disciple went forth, and they were going to the tomb. Luke clearly has Mary reporting of the resurrected Jesus, Peter thinking the story to be nonsense, Peter running to the tomb. But in John we have Mary reporting that someone has taken the body and they don't know where they have "laid" him (an un-resurrected accounting as one could provide), Peter going to the tomb. These "certainly" have to be referring to the same account. I can't find any articulate apologist responses to this issue. How have you seen this addressed in a rational, reasonable attempt at harmonization? Many thanks, iPatch Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; Resurrection Accounts - Luke v John Dear Dr. Price: One topic that I never saw well-addressed in any harmonization acount of the Gospels was the varying reports provided by Mary Magdalene, in Luke and John. To wit (NASB): Luke 21 : 4 While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men suddenly stood near them in dazzling clothing; 5 and as the women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, â??Why do you seek the living One among the dead? 6 â??He is not here, but He has risen. Remember how He spoke to you while He was still in Galilee, 7 saying that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.â?? 8 And they remembered His words, 9 and returned from the tomb and reported all these things to the eleven and to all the rest. 10 Now they were Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James; also the other women with them were telling these things to the apostles. 11 But these words appeared to them as nonsense, and they would not believe them. 12 But Peter got up and ran to the tomb .. But in John 20: 1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark, and saw the stone already taken away from the tomb. 2 So she ran and came to Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and said to them, â??They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.â?? 3 So Peter and the other disciple went forth, and they were going to the tomb. Luke clearly has Mary reporting of the resurrected Jesus, Peter thinking the story to be nonsense, Peter running to the tomb. But in John we have Mary reporting that someone has taken the body and they don't know where they have "laid" him (an un-resurrected accounting as one could provide), Peter going to the tomb. These "certainly" have to be referring to the same account. I can't find any articulate apologist responses to this issue. How have you seen this addressed in a rational, reasonable attempt at harmonization? Many thanks, iPatch 08:12 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146384.mp3 Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146384.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146384.mp3 I remember, during an Infidel guy podcast, hearing you talk about the "Book of the generations of Adam" genealogy in Genesis 5 and its direct parallel to some list of Sumerian or Akkadian or Babylonian kings; but since then I have not been able to remember in which episode you talked about it nor have I stumbled back upon it. I was wondering if you could draw that parallel again, and perhaps even go into a little more detail about the dating of the ancient near eastern texts referenced and where one might find good translations of them for personal study. Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; Long-living patriarchs and ancient near eastern kings I remember, during an Infidel guy podcast, hearing you talk about the "Book of the generations of Adam" genealogy in Genesis 5 and its direct parallel to some list of Sumerian or Akkadian or Babylonian kings; but since then I have not been able to remember in which episode you talked about it nor have I stumbled back upon it. I was wondering if you could draw that parallel again, and perhaps even go into a little more detail about the dating of the ancient near eastern texts referenced and where one might find good translations of them for personal study. 09:20 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146383.mp3 Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146383.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146383.mp3 Bob you mentioned the other night a forthcoming talk you are going to give on pre-Christian savior. Who are some of the figure or are you talking about Isis, Bacchus, Mithra, Ashtar the Awesome, Baal,etc. Or was there a a general cult of the Savior that did not care about the specifics of the Savior. How does the Marcionite/Gnostic revealer Chrestus aka "the Good" figure in with this savior cult or was this a later synthesis that associated the two concepts. Thanks, Steven Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; The names of some of the Pre-Christian saviors aka Jesuses Bob you mentioned the other night a forthcoming talk you are going to give on pre-Christian savior. Who are some of the figure or are you talking about Isis, Bacchus, Mithra, Ashtar the Awesome, Baal,etc. Or was there a a general cult of the Savior that did not care about the specifics of the Savior. How does the Marcionite/Gnostic revealer Chrestus aka "the Good" figure in with this savior cult or was this a later synthesis that associated the two concepts. Thanks, Steven 12:50 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146382.mp3 Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146382.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146382.mp3 Are there any plans to (re)publish Hermann Detering's article The Falsified Paul in the new JOHC as I can't find a back issue available and a hard copy version is much easier to read and refer back to. Thanks. Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; Detering article Are there any plans to (re)publish Hermann Detering's article The Falsified Paul in the new JOHC as I can't find a back issue available and a hard copy version is much easier to read and refer back to. Thanks. 01:19 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146381.mp3 Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146381.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-146381.mp3 Bob, In World Religion lecture #7 you mention that you believe Judaism may have originally been like Zoroastrianism with an evil deity created the unkosher foods animals. If this is the case does it explain the charge that John the Baptizer had a demon in Luke 7, since John would be eating the creations of the evil diety? Coud this pericope be a reference back to the polytheistic Hebrew faith Margaret Barker argues was still around with the formation of Christianity? Or is merely an early Christian attempt at attacking the founder of a rival sect by equating him with a crazed ascetic who eats bugs? Steven Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; John the Baptizer diet Bob, In World Religion lecture #7 you mention that you believe Judaism may have originally been like Zoroastrianism with an evil deity created the unkosher foods animals. If this is the case does it explain the charge that John the Baptizer had a demon in Luke 7, since John would be eating the creations of the evil diety? Coud this pericope be a reference back to the polytheistic Hebrew faith Margaret Barker argues was still around with the formation of Christianity? Or is merely an early Christian attempt at attacking the founder of a rival sect by equating him with a crazed ascetic who eats bugs? Steven 04:56 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144428.mp3 Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144428.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144428.mp3 Bob's opening monologue for the September 3 show where Dr. Price answers questions submitted on http://TheBibleGeek.org Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Show Intro - Sept 3 Bob's opening monologue for the September 3 show where Dr. Price answers questions submitted on http://TheBibleGeek.org 08:48 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144426.mp3 Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144426.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144426.mp3 Hi Dr. Price There's a stone tablet with Hebrew inscriptions in the news this week that may have an impact on the Historical Jesus debate. The story is here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=messiah&st=cse&oref=slogin In summary, it's an inscribed tablet dating from the late 1st century BCE, in which a messiah figure is prophesied to rise from the dead in three days. The times article says that this may be evidence that the resurrection prophecies in the Gospels may actually have been uttered by Jesus, since he would have had a context for them within apocalyptic Judaism of the time. And yet, I couldn't help recalling all the apologists who argue for the historicity of the resurrection itself, because 1st century Jews could never have imagined a dying and rising messiah if it hadn't actually happened. If this tablet is genuine, and the interpretation of the inscription correct, doesn't it pretty much demolish that argument? Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; Hebrew Tablet and the Historical Jesus Hi Dr. Price There's a stone tablet with Hebrew inscriptions in the news this week that may have an impact on the Historical Jesus debate. The story is here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=messiah&st=cse&oref=slogin In summary, it's an inscribed tablet dating from the late 1st century BCE, in which a messiah figure is prophesied to rise from the dead in three days. The times article says that this may be evidence that the resurrection prophecies in the Gospels may actually have been uttered by Jesus, since he would have had a context for them within apocalyptic Judaism of the time. And yet, I couldn't help recalling all the apologists who argue for the historicity of the resurrection itself, because 1st century Jews could never have imagined a dying and rising messiah if it hadn't actually happened. If this tablet is genuine, and the interpretation of the inscription correct, doesn't it pretty much demolish that argument? 08:14 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144425.mp3 Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144425.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144425.mp3 Hi! I'm a humble Amphibian-American living in the Northwest. Having grown up Jewish (and you wouldn't believe how hard it is for a frog to keep Kosher) and hanging out with Chassids I have at least a passing acquaintance with my Tribe's odder tradition. I don't have enough Hebrew or Aramaic to really get further into it, but that's just a matter of making the time. My flirtation with Eastern traditions tended towards the Vajrayana school. My wife grew up in an indifferently Chinese Ch'an Buddhist home. We became Sufis a few years back. She came up with a very good line - "Mystics recognize each other. Fundamentalists only see themselves and sin." It's not completely true, but there's definitely something there. In all four of these the training and tradition have always been available. In some times and places they would get you killed for heresy, and there were all sorts of cautionary tales and safeguards. But in the end the esoteric, personal and whatever else you want to call it was around for those who cared to look for it. And one didn't have to look too hard. So where is the mystic Christian tradition, let alone a living one? The Orthodox seem to keep them shut up in monasteries. The Catholics have Contemplative orders, once again kept far away from the flock. Is there anything like Chassidus, Kabbalah, the Tantras or Tariqat in the Christian world? Or is it all locked safely away where most people can never get near it? Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; We got 'em. They got 'em. Where do the Christians got 'em? Hi! I'm a humble Amphibian-American living in the Northwest. Having grown up Jewish (and you wouldn't believe how hard it is for a frog to keep Kosher) and hanging out with Chassids I have at least a passing acquaintance with my Tribe's odder tradition. I don't have enough Hebrew or Aramaic to really get further into it, but that's just a matter of making the time. My flirtation with Eastern traditions tended towards the Vajrayana school. My wife grew up in an indifferently Chinese Ch'an Buddhist home. We became Sufis a few years back. She came up with a very good line - "Mystics recognize each other. Fundamentalists only see themselves and sin." It's not completely true, but there's definitely something there. In all four of these the training and tradition have always been available. In some times and places they would get you killed for heresy, and there were all sorts of cautionary tales and safeguards. But in the end the esoteric, personal and whatever else you want to call it was around for those who cared to look for it. And one didn't have to look too hard. So where is the mystic Christian tradition, let alone a living one? The Orthodox seem to keep them shut up in monasteries. The Catholics have Contemplative orders, once again kept far away from the flock. Is there anything like Chassidus, Kabbalah, the Tantras or Tariqat in the Christian world? Or is it all locked safely away where most people can never get near it? 08:51 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144424.mp3 Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144424.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144424.mp3 Bob, In Mark 2:14 Levi the son of Alphaeus is mentioned, then in Mark 3:18 a character named James or Jacob, son of Alphaeus is named one of the twelve. Are they suppose to be brother or the same person or what? In Matthews redactions of the naming of the twelve (Matthew 10:2-4) "Matthew" lists Matthew the tax collector and James the son of Alphaeus, while Luke includes the name Matthew without the saying whether this Matthew was a tax collector and James the son of Alphaeus. This combined with the fact that Matthew in the retelling of Mark 2:14 (Matthew 9:9) calls the tax collector Matthew suggest that they are different people, if they are different people then what is the importants of the name Alphaeus? Steven Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; sons of Alphaeus Bob, In Mark 2:14 Levi the son of Alphaeus is mentioned, then in Mark 3:18 a character named James or Jacob, son of Alphaeus is named one of the twelve. Are they suppose to be brother or the same person or what? In Matthews redactions of the naming of the twelve (Matthew 10:2-4) "Matthew" lists Matthew the tax collector and James the son of Alphaeus, while Luke includes the name Matthew without the saying whether this Matthew was a tax collector and James the son of Alphaeus. This combined with the fact that Matthew in the retelling of Mark 2:14 (Matthew 9:9) calls the tax collector Matthew suggest that they are different people, if they are different people then what is the importants of the name Alphaeus? Steven 08:43 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144423.mp3 Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144423.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144423.mp3 As you may already know the Codex Sinaiticus will be released online for the first time. Here is the story: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gzdZYondd-Jlqw-ziW9W3qmSSeUwD922E3300 http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/ What is the significance of this? Love the show keep it up! Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; How important is the Codex Sinaiticus As you may already know the Codex Sinaiticus will be released online for the first time. Here is the story: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gzdZYondd-Jlqw-ziW9W3qmSSeUwD922E3300 http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/ What is the significance of this? Love the show keep it up! 12:15 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144420.mp3 Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144420.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144420.mp3 I was reading Acts around 4:15-18 when I noticed that events are being described that, presumably, no Christian was present to record for the purpose of including in the Bible. It is obvious that to the overall nature of Bible writing is that of an omniscient narrator. But this case is not a question of chosen style of writing, but what facts were available to the writer from which to construct the story line at all. If Christians make the claim that God inspired the Bible in the sense that he proved such unknowable facts to the human author, then why would this hypothetical God bother to be filling "his critical message to the human race" with such trivia has the words and motivation of the Sanhedrin in this minor episode. How much of the Bible is written in this "omniscient-trivia" style? Thanks from a lifelong atheist. Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; Who is the "narrator" of the NT? I was reading Acts around 4:15-18 when I noticed that events are being described that, presumably, no Christian was present to record for the purpose of including in the Bible. It is obvious that to the overall nature of Bible writing is that of an omniscient narrator. But this case is not a question of chosen style of writing, but what facts were available to the writer from which to construct the story line at all. If Christians make the claim that God inspired the Bible in the sense that he proved such unknowable facts to the human author, then why would this hypothetical God bother to be filling "his critical message to the human race" with such trivia has the words and motivation of the Sanhedrin in this minor episode. How much of the Bible is written in this "omniscient-trivia" style? Thanks from a lifelong atheist. 12:09 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144419.mp3 Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144419.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-144419.mp3 Hi Dr. Price, I have been a fan of yours for a long time now and I have always loved your approach to your work... getting to the point, I was wondering if you could make any suggestions toward an M.A. Thesis on the Apocryphal Acts, whether sources, ideas, or if there is an area that you think there could be more research of the literary-critical type, I know you have a strong background in fiction and literature in general, so I just figured I would ask if you had any ideas in the back of your mind, maybe something bouncing around in there concerning the Apocryphal Acts that is just golden! As all your ideas are! Thanks so much, keep up the good work, you have inspired many! Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; M.A. Thesis on the Apocryphal Acts of the Apostles Hi Dr. Price, I have been a fan of yours for a long time now and I have always loved your approach to your work... getting to the point, I was wondering if you could make any suggestions toward an M.A. Thesis on the Apocryphal Acts, whether sources, ideas, or if there is an area that you think there could be more research of the literary-critical type, I know you have a strong background in fiction and literature in general, so I just figured I would ask if you had any ideas in the back of your mind, maybe something bouncing around in there concerning the Apocryphal Acts that is just golden! As all your ideas are! Thanks so much, keep up the good work, you have inspired many! 08:16 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142531.mp3 Wed, 27 Aug 2008 01:07:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142531.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142531.mp3 It seems to me there are two contradictory ways of debunking the New Testament and believe me it needs debunking. 1. This is the emphasis on the Jewish Christians who ran the early church, were dispersed after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, and eventually were considered heretics by the mainstream churches. The Pauline Church ignored them as much as possible and was not really interested in the real Jesus, a Jewish apocalyptic figure. The Robert Eisler book on the Old Russian version of Josephus gives us an interesting picture of this Jesus and of his politically rebellious followers. 2. This is the emphasis of Burton Mack and others that Jesus can be found only in the Q source and in the Gospel of Thomas and he was less a Jewish apocalyptic figure than a Cynic offering aphorisms and not much more. Which is the better position? Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; the real Jesus It seems to me there are two contradictory ways of debunking the New Testament and believe me it needs debunking. 1. This is the emphasis on the Jewish Christians who ran the early church, were dispersed after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, and eventually were considered heretics by the mainstream churches. The Pauline Church ignored them as much as possible and was not really interested in the real Jesus, a Jewish apocalyptic figure. The Robert Eisler book on the Old Russian version of Josephus gives us an interesting picture of this Jesus and of his politically rebellious followers. 2. This is the emphasis of Burton Mack and others that Jesus can be found only in the Q source and in the Gospel of Thomas and he was less a Jewish apocalyptic figure than a Cynic offering aphorisms and not much more. Which is the better position? 07:10 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142530.mp3 Wed, 27 Aug 2008 01:06:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142530.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142530.mp3 Good day Professor, and I thank you in advance for your time. I have not yet read your book "The Pre-Nicene New Testament," but I am engaged in a discussion regarding what you purportedly said in regards to Romans 1.3 & 1.4. The person I am discussing this with has quoted you as saying that you believe that Romans 1.3 - 1.4 are an interpolation. This person says you did not explain how you came to that conclusion, and who specifically agrees with you. The reason I am interested in this is because I personally have examined the text, and found substantial consistencies in the language of at least Romans 1.3 with the rest of Romans. Here's my example: Romans 1.3 "Jesus Christ our Lord" - Rom 1.3, 5.21, 6.11, 6.23, 7.25 "The seed of" - Rom 1.3; 9.7; 11.1 "According to the flesh" - Rom 1.3; 8.1; 8.4; 8.5; 8.12; 8.13; 9.3; Therefore, at your earliest convenience we will await your reply. Best regards. - Team FFI Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; Regarding Romans Good day Professor, and I thank you in advance for your time. I have not yet read your book "The Pre-Nicene New Testament," but I am engaged in a discussion regarding what you purportedly said in regards to Romans 1.3 & 1.4. The person I am discussing this with has quoted you as saying that you believe that Romans 1.3 - 1.4 are an interpolation. This person says you did not explain how you came to that conclusion, and who specifically agrees with you. The reason I am interested in this is because I personally have examined the text, and found substantial consistencies in the language of at least Romans 1.3 with the rest of Romans. Here's my example: Romans 1.3 "Jesus Christ our Lord" - Rom 1.3, 5.21, 6.11, 6.23, 7.25 "The seed of" - Rom 1.3; 9.7; 11.1 "According to the flesh" - Rom 1.3; 8.1; 8.4; 8.5; 8.12; 8.13; 9.3; Therefore, at your earliest convenience we will await your reply. Best regards. - Team FFI 09:55 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142529.mp3 Wed, 27 Aug 2008 01:05:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142529.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142529.mp3 I was doing a show when someone brought up the 'artifacts' discovered by Ron Wyatt- the nurse archeologist. While it is very easy to dismiss his findings, I must ask about the inscriptions themselves? Have the Israelite saga graffiti been debunked, refuted and falsified? Should we add this to the pieces of Jesus' cross or his foreskin, or challis and all the other fakes or is it legit. What say you? Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; The inscriptions of the Israelites I was doing a show when someone brought up the 'artifacts' discovered by Ron Wyatt- the nurse archeologist. While it is very easy to dismiss his findings, I must ask about the inscriptions themselves? Have the Israelite saga graffiti been debunked, refuted and falsified? Should we add this to the pieces of Jesus' cross or his foreskin, or challis and all the other fakes or is it legit. What say you? 04:52 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142527.mp3 Wed, 27 Aug 2008 01:04:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142527.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142527.mp3 Tacitus in his work The Annals says this: "Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus..." source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Jesus How legitimate is this passage by Tacitus? Was Tacitus considered a very accurate historian? Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; Tacitus mentioning Christus Tacitus in his work The Annals says this: "Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus..." source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Jesus How legitimate is this passage by Tacitus? Was Tacitus considered a very accurate historian? 07:50 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142525.mp3 Wed, 27 Aug 2008 01:03:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142525.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142525.mp3 Bob, You mentioned, I believe it was in the Genesis lecture, that you once had some of your students write stories about Goliath from Goliath perspective. This idea has struck me as an interesting concept and I was wondering if you might consider doing an anthology of Goliath stories? I was thinking of writing one myself but was unsure of a publication outlet for a swords and sandal short story, then I though the person I would like see publish it was you. Would you consider publishing through lulu an anthology of Goliath or Biblical modeled stories with an introduction done by you? Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; Goliath Stories Bob, You mentioned, I believe it was in the Genesis lecture, that you once had some of your students write stories about Goliath from Goliath perspective. This idea has struck me as an interesting concept and I was wondering if you might consider doing an anthology of Goliath stories? I was thinking of writing one myself but was unsure of a publication outlet for a swords and sandal short story, then I though the person I would like see publish it was you. Would you consider publishing through lulu an anthology of Goliath or Biblical modeled stories with an introduction done by you? 04:23 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142523.mp3 Wed, 27 Aug 2008 01:02:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142523.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142523.mp3 Dr. Price, I have two questions if i may: 1. I'm curious what you make of the Luke 1:1-4. Is the whole passage a later interpolation? If authentic, do you think the author is "guilty" or "innocent"? By innocent I mean that he for whatever reasons thinks that his sources are historical in nature, and that he has genuine historical information to add from his "eyewitnesses and servants of the word". Or is he guilty, in the sense of being one of the earliest known Jesus historicist who knowingly takes symbolic source stories and construes them as a Jesus biography? 2. I've heard many Catholics claim that Revelation 12:1-6 refers to Mary, the mother of Jesus, and her role as a salvatory "co-redemptrix" or "mediatrix". Not sure if you're familiar with the "Our Lady of Guadeloupe" cult following, but they claim a supernatural origin of an image of Mary standing on the moon with stars above her and the sun behind her -- and use this as a proof text. Does the text have anything to do with Mary? Who is the woman? And what is the significance of the 1260 days? Many thanks, Daniel. Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A;Lukes preface and woman clothed with the sun Dr. Price, I have two questions if i may: 1. I'm curious what you make of the Luke 1:1-4. Is the whole passage a later interpolation? If authentic, do you think the author is "guilty" or "innocent"? By innocent I mean that he for whatever reasons thinks that his sources are historical in nature, and that he has genuine historical information to add from his "eyewitnesses and servants of the word". Or is he guilty, in the sense of being one of the earliest known Jesus historicist who knowingly takes symbolic source stories and construes them as a Jesus biography? 2. I've heard many Catholics claim that Revelation 12:1-6 refers to Mary, the mother of Jesus, and her role as a salvatory "co-redemptrix" or "mediatrix". Not sure if you're familiar with the "Our Lady of Guadeloupe" cult following, but they claim a supernatural origin of an image of Mary standing on the moon with stars above her and the sun behind her -- and use this as a proof text. Does the text have anything to do with Mary? Who is the woman? And what is the significance of the 1260 days? Many thanks, Daniel. 18:16 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142522.mp3 Wed, 27 Aug 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142522.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142522.mp3 opening show monologue. Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Bob's 8/27/08 intro opening show monologue. 09:42 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142093.mp3 Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142093.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142093.mp3 Bob,at a number of place you have mentioned Rational theology and Rational lifes of Jesus, I know that this movement and their explanation of Biblical miracles came under attack by Strauss. Is there any books in English represent this movement and their theology I am especially interested in the varous Lifes of Jesus. Thanks, Steven Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; Rationalist Theology and Rationalist Lifes of Jesus Bob,at a number of place you have mentioned Rational theology and Rational lifes of Jesus, I know that this movement and their explanation of Biblical miracles came under attack by Strauss. Is there any books in English represent this movement and their theology I am especially interested in the varous Lifes of Jesus. Thanks, Steven 18:31 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142091.mp3 Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142091.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142091.mp3 I have occasionally heard or read New Testament scholars speak dismissively of the Enlightenment or "Enlightenment thinking," particularly when discussing how historians ought to regard the miracle stories. I just finished a book by Marcus Borg and N.T. Wright, "The Meaning of Jesus," in which Wright treats the Enlightenment as if it's something that went out with the wringer-washer. Granted, I don't get out much, but just when did rationalism and empiricism fall out of favor among historians? Seriously, are the values of the Enlightenment really considered passe by NT scholars, or is this just an attempt by apologists to excuse magical thinking when doing historical reconstruction? -- Scott Knickelbine Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; What's so funny about the Enlightenment? I have occasionally heard or read New Testament scholars speak dismissively of the Enlightenment or "Enlightenment thinking," particularly when discussing how historians ought to regard the miracle stories. I just finished a book by Marcus Borg and N.T. Wright, "The Meaning of Jesus," in which Wright treats the Enlightenment as if it's something that went out with the wringer-washer. Granted, I don't get out much, but just when did rationalism and empiricism fall out of favor among historians? Seriously, are the values of the Enlightenment really considered passe by NT scholars, or is this just an attempt by apologists to excuse magical thinking when doing historical reconstruction? -- Scott Knickelbine 14:30 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142072.mp3 Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142072.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-142072.mp3 Greetings Dr. Price from Robert Bumbalough in Mesquite Texas aka libertarianbob. I listened to Biblegeek #12 (recorded in November 2005) yesterday. In that show with Reginald Findley, you mentioned you were working on a book about Paul and his roots in Marcionite Gnosticism entitled "The Amazing Colossal Apostle". Is that work available? I'm very interested in learning the story of how Paul got on with the Gnostics. Thanks and Best Robert Bumbalough Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; Dr Price, will "The Amazing Colossal Apostle" be available sometime? Greetings Dr. Price from Robert Bumbalough in Mesquite Texas aka libertarianbob. I listened to Biblegeek #12 (recorded in November 2005) yesterday. In that show with Reginald Findley, you mentioned you were working on a book about Paul and his roots in Marcionite Gnosticism entitled "The Amazing Colossal Apostle". Is that work available? I'm very interested in learning the story of how Paul got on with the Gnostics. Thanks and Best Robert Bumbalough 07:29 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-141775.mp3 Mon, 25 Aug 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-141775.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-141775.mp3 Bob, I have a question for your Genesis Lecture series. In the 8 June Genesis lecture you talked about the scarifice of Isaac, you however did not mention the alternative story put forward in Shalom Spiegel's book "The Last Trial: The Akedah on the Legends and Lore of the Command to Abraham to Offer Isaac as a Sacrifice" that Isaac as actually scarificed and resurrected after two to three years. Could you give your thought on this tradition. Steven Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; This question has to do with the Genesis lecture Bob, I have a question for your Genesis Lecture series. In the 8 June Genesis lecture you talked about the scarifice of Isaac, you however did not mention the alternative story put forward in Shalom Spiegel's book "The Last Trial: The Akedah on the Legends and Lore of the Command to Abraham to Offer Isaac as a Sacrifice" that Isaac as actually scarificed and resurrected after two to three years. Could you give your thought on this tradition. Steven 11:56 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-141297.mp3 Sat, 23 Aug 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-141297.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-141297.mp3 Bob, I know you have written a few articles/ essays on the Book of Mormon and was wondering if you could point to any scholarly aka non apologic work on the Book of Mormon? As always thanks, Steven Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; Book of Mormon Bob, I know you have written a few articles/ essays on the Book of Mormon and was wondering if you could point to any scholarly aka non apologic work on the Book of Mormon? As always thanks, Steven 07:35 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-141200.mp3 Fri, 22 Aug 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-141200.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-141200.mp3 Bob's intro to the 8/20 Bible Geek webstream. The webstream is new, and is when Bob answers the questions that accumulate in the "Ask The Bible Geek" forum. The questions answered each week will be released, at this point, one a day, so that you get a Bible Geek bite each day. Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org 8/20 Bible Geek intro Bob's intro to the 8/20 Bible Geek webstream. The webstream is new, and is when Bob answers the questions that accumulate in the "Ask The Bible Geek" forum. The questions answered each week will be released, at this point, one a day, so that you get a Bible Geek bite each day. 05:30 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-140467.mp3 Tue, 19 Aug 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-140467.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-140467.mp3 Dr Price, two questions regarding Romans 13:9 - "For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." First, it is interesting that the author only quotes those commandments which deal with relations amongst people. Is the author intentionally ignoring commandments like 'Remember the Sabbath Day', or 'Thou shalt have no other gods before me' and others which deal with relations with God? Jesus states that the sum of the Law was to 'Love the Lord thy God AND love thy neighbor. Yet, the statement that the Law can be summed by 'loving God' is strangely absent from this Romans passage (also see Galatians 5:14). What is going on? Second, moral commandments like 'Thou shalt not kill' are stated as negatives. How does the author consider not killing, or not stealing from a neighbor to be loving that neighbor? I don't steal from my neighbor, but I do not necessarily love that neighbor. Just what does the author mean by 'love' in this context? Thanks - Ravishing Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; What happened to 'Love the Lord your God'? And what is love? Dr Price, two questions regarding Romans 13:9 - "For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." First, it is interesting that the author only quotes those commandments which deal with relations amongst people. Is the author intentionally ignoring commandments like 'Remember the Sabbath Day', or 'Thou shalt have no other gods before me' and others which deal with relations with God? Jesus states that the sum of the Law was to 'Love the Lord thy God AND love thy neighbor. Yet, the statement that the Law can be summed by 'loving God' is strangely absent from this Romans passage (also see Galatians 5:14). What is going on? Second, moral commandments like 'Thou shalt not kill' are stated as negatives. How does the author consider not killing, or not stealing from a neighbor to be loving that neighbor? I don't steal from my neighbor, but I do not necessarily love that neighbor. Just what does the author mean by 'love' in this context? Thanks - Ravishing 07:49 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-140194.mp3 Mon, 18 Aug 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-140194.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-140194.mp3 where is any evidence of the deaths of these people. It is often argued that they wouldn't have died for what they were preaching if they thought it wasn't true, which is disputable in itself. Do we have any reliable evidence that all of them actually even exsisted let alone were martyred? Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; Peter James and Paul's martyrdom where is any evidence of the deaths of these people. It is often argued that they wouldn't have died for what they were preaching if they thought it wasn't true, which is disputable in itself. Do we have any reliable evidence that all of them actually even exsisted let alone were martyred? 11:54 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-139947.mp3 Sun, 17 Aug 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-139947.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-139947.mp3 I was listening to a show you did on the Infidel guy about how Samson represents the Sun god. I know his name means Sunshine in Hebrew, What myth would this story have been taken from? Does it have any earlier origins? Also when Manoah ask's the angel what his name is why do you think he wouldn't tell him? And why did they think it was God? Does this have anything to do with the reference to Yahweh not giving his name? Thank you so much for taking the time to read my question. Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A Samson question I was listening to a show you did on the Infidel guy about how Samson represents the Sun god. I know his name means Sunshine in Hebrew, What myth would this story have been taken from? Does it have any earlier origins? Also when Manoah ask's the angel what his name is why do you think he wouldn't tell him? And why did they think it was God? Does this have anything to do with the reference to Yahweh not giving his name? Thank you so much for taking the time to read my question. 11:26 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-139700.mp3 Fri, 15 Aug 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-139700.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-139700.mp3 In the second chapter of Randel Helms' book "Gospel Fictions" the author points out that in three of the four canonical Gospels that the words of Jesus are recorded differently, and Matthew spins the words for his own purposes. In Mark and Matthew Jesus is depicted as uttering his final words as ""My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?". But as Helms point out: "Mark presents these words it self-consciously realistic fashion, shifting from his usual Greek into the Aramaic of Jesus, transliterated into Greek letters: "'Eloi eloi lama sabachthanei (My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? - Mark 15:34). Mark gives us no hint that Jesus is "quoting" Pslam 22:1; we are clearly to believe that we are hearing the grieving outcry of a dying man. But the author of Matthew, who used Mark as one of his major written sources is self-consciously "Literary" in both this and yet another way: though using Mark as his major source for the passion story, Matthew is fully aware that Mark's crucifixion narrative is based largely on the 22 nd Psalm, fully aware, that is, that Mark's Gospel is part of a literary tradition (this description would not be Matthew's vocabulary, but his method is nonetheless literary). Aware of the tradition, Matthew knew that no Aramaic speaker present at the Cross would mistake a cry to God (Eloi) for one to Elijah - the words are too dissimilar. So Matthew self-consciously evoked yet another literary tradition in the service both of verisimilitude and of greater faithfulness to the Scriptures: not the Aramaic of Psalm 22:1 but the Hebrew, which he too transliterated into Greek - "Eli Eli" (Matt. 27:46) - a cry which could more realistically be confused for "Eleian". Matthew self-consciously appeals both to literary tradition -a "purer" text of the Psalms-and to verisimilitude as he reshapes Mark, his literary source. ..... Matthew certainly knew that he was creating a linguistic fiction in his case (Jesus spoke Aramaic, not Hebrew.) though just as clearly he felt justified in doing so, given his conviction that since Psalm 22 had "predicted" events in the crucifixion, it could be appealed to even in the literary sense of one vocabulary rather that another, as a more "valid description of the Passion." My question then Dr. Price is why did Mark and Matthew want to have his bystanders at the Crucifixion scene say in Mat 27:47 "And some of the bystanders hearing it said, "This man is calling Eli'jah." While Mark has it that: Mar 15:35 "And some of the bystanders hearing it said, "Behold, he is calling Eli'jah." Helms seems to have hit the nail squarely in that Matthew used Hebrew words as his Jesus' last utterance to make the observation of his bystanders more realistic, but I do not understand why it was important to Mark and Matthew to have the bystanders indicate that they thought Jesus was calling Elijah. Could you shine your light on this one, please? Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; Why did Matthew write his crucifixition scene differently from that o In the second chapter of Randel Helms' book "Gospel Fictions" the author points out that in three of the four canonical Gospels that the words of Jesus are recorded differently, and Matthew spins the words for his own purposes. In Mark and Matthew Jesus is depicted as uttering his final words as ""My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?". But as Helms point out: "Mark presents these words it self-consciously realistic fashion, shifting from his usual Greek into the Aramaic of Jesus, transliterated into Greek letters: "'Eloi eloi lama sabachthanei (My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? - Mark 15:34). Mark gives us no hint that Jesus is "quoting" Pslam 22:1; we are clearly to believe that we are hearing the grieving outcry of a dying man. But the author of Matthew, who used Mark as one of his major written sources is self-consciously "Literary" in both this and yet another way: though using Mark as his major source for the passion story, Matthew is fully aware that Mark's crucifixion narrative is based largely on the 22 nd Psalm, fully aware, that is, that Mark's Gospel is part of a literary tradition (this description would not be Matthew's vocabulary, but his method is nonetheless literary). Aware of the tradition, Matthew knew that no Aramaic speaker present at the Cross would mistake a cry to God (Eloi) for one to Elijah - the words are too dissimilar. So Matthew self-consciously evoked yet another literary tradition in the service both of verisimilitude and of greater faithfulness to the Scriptures: not the Aramaic of Psalm 22:1 but the Hebrew, which he too transliterated into Greek - "Eli Eli" (Matt. 27:46) - a cry which could more realistically be confused for "Eleian". Matthew self-consciously appeals both to literary tradition -a "purer" text of the Psalms-and to verisimilitude as he reshapes Mark, his literary source. ..... Matthew certainly knew that he was creating a linguistic fiction in his case (Jesus spoke Aramaic, not Hebrew.) though just as clearly he felt justified in doing so, given his conviction that since Psalm 22 had "predicted" events in the crucifixion, it could be appealed to even in the literary sense of one vocabulary rather that another, as a more "valid description of the Passion." My question then Dr. Price is why did Mark and Matthew want to have his bystanders at the Crucifixion scene say in Mat 27:47 "And some of the bystanders hearing it said, "This man is calling Eli'jah." While Mark has it that: Mar 15:35 "And some of the bystanders hearing it said, "Behold, he is calling Eli'jah." Helms seems to have hit the nail squarely in that Matthew used Hebrew words as his Jesus' last utterance to make the observation of his bystanders more realistic, but I do not understand why it was important to Mark and Matthew to have the bystanders indicate that they thought Jesus was calling Elijah. Could you shine your light on this one, please? 09:09 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-139258.mp3 Wed, 13 Aug 2008 01:00:00 -0700 info@talkshoe.com http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-139258.mp3 http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-60712/TS-139258.mp3 1. How historically reliable and accurate do scholars consider the accounts of Josephus in regards to what he wrote? What are some other sources for the Jewish Roman war and the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem? 2. Do you think it's possible that John of Giscala could be the John of Revelation fame? Religion & Spirituality TheBibleGeek.org Q&A; 3 part question 1. How historically reliable and accurate do scholars consider the accounts of Josephus in regards to what he wrote? What are some other sources for the Jewish Roman war and the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem? 2. Do you think it's possible that John of Giscala could be the John of Revelation fame? 15:36 clean The Bible Geek Ricco webulite Robert M. Price